Appreciating Intellectual Honesty
It was refreshing to see this recent piece that at least restored my hope that even print Yellow Page atheists, as impassioned about their cause, at least can sometimes be intellectually honest about valid results put in front of them, such as this analysis from Ian Andrew Bell in his The Yellow Pages: Adapt or die article. Mr. Bell presented all sides of the discussion but nicely articulated the frustration behind those online only pundits that decry the printed products as “spam”. Check this out:
“….But unfortunately, the Yellow Pages business is not yet the death march that the Web 2.0 kids have hoped it would become. … This may say a lot more about the new media of web, telephony, and mobile and their capabilities than it does about the old medium of schlepping giant books door-to-door for punters to thumb through.
For one thing, the Yellow Pages is still the number one tool used by consumers to find local business; the industry continues to forecast growth in the bellwether US marketplace from $10.3 billion in 1996 to a projected $18 billion by 2010 — yes, some of their revenue comes from online, but that number is pegged at between 25% and one-third.
Oh. And people still (gasp!) turn to their Yellow Pages more frequently than anything else for finding products and services that are local to them. According to research released a couple of months ago from Knowledge Networks, nearly half (48%) of consumers report print Yellow Pages as the resource they turn to most often for information on a business or service, and more than three-quarters (77%) use the print Yellow Pages overall….”
We all know the industry in the throes of a conversation where as the needs of the customers it serves – small and mid-sized business, change/evolve to also include online advertising as a bigger and bigger component of their marketing plans, the industry will be there to help them in this evolution.
But that evolution doesn’t mean the print Yellow Pages aren’t also going to be a key ongoing component of that marketing plan, no matter how much some people despise their very existence. Get over it.
on February 25, 2009 on 10:24 pm
Ken, I think you’re being intellectually dishonest in suggesting that people who don’t use the yellow pages think that no one uses the yellow pages. For example, I know that many people still rely upon print advertising shipped to their door. Good for them.
However, when a yellow pages company delivers books to my house after I’ve make it clear that I will not use them, that is indeed print spam.
It seems like you’re trying to argue that because some people find yellow pages valuable that everyone should find them valuable. That seems kind of silly, eh?
on February 25, 2009 on 11:10 pm
I think its really silly Ed that you need find every excuse to classify these products as “spam”. If you use the Wikipedia definition of spam it makes several very clear points:
1) “….Spam is the abuse of electronic messaging systems to send unsolicited bulk messages indiscriminately.
2) “…Spamming remains economically viable because advertisers have no operating costs beyond the management of their mailing lists, and it is difficult to hold senders accountable for their mass mailings. Because the barrier to entry is so low, spammers are numerous, and the volume of unsolicited mail has become very high….’
Yellow Pages publishers:
– often are the only source that local governments have to get important information to their community, every thing from contact numbers to evacuation plans. No other media provides that kind of complete community coverage so there is a true community need being fulfilled with those mass distributions. That may not be an issue for you up in Minny, but here in the Carolina’s, people need to know about those evacuation plans, especially during the hurricane season
– have been accountable by changing their production techniques to use recycled content in their paper, more eco-friendly printing techniques, and have been working with their local communities to have the old books recycled. I don’t see the newspaper industry or bottle beverage groups making similar commitments, and yet it doesn’t seem to bother you that their products fill our landfills at a rate which is 10+x that of Yellow Pages. Aren’t we being a little bias here?
– do have operating costs to print and deliver the books. To suggest otherwise is beyond silly.
– are establishing opt-out processes, even if you aren’t happy with the pace of those efforts. Your unhappiness with them not excepting third party lists is their choice not yours. But as I’ve noted on many occasions, based on the volume of incorrect information I’ve seen on those lists, it makes them highly suspect.
I get several hundred spam messages each day as I’m sure you probably do. It takes a couple minutes each day to weed those out and delete them. The printed directoriees show up once a year and take all of 30 seconds to deposit in the recycling bin if you are that deadset againist even considering them. That’s the silly part. This over the top reaction that the arrival of a directory on your doorstep has somehow damaged your quality of life is silly given it takes longer to fire up your PC and find some blog to vent your feelings than it does to just recycle the book.
You have to admit Ed, wasn’t it silly of you to use all that fossil fuel to drive across town to go throw a book back at Verizon?? I would have thought you would have a better use of your time than that.
You may doubt this but they really don’t wake up each morning and plot new ways to further irritate you
on February 26, 2009 on 9:30 pm
Ken, I think it’s really silly of you to classify people who wish to opt out of yellow pages as “Yellow Page Atheists”
If you use the wikipedia definition of Atheism it makes some very clear points.
Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the assertion that there are no deities,[1] or the rejection of theism.[2] It is also[3] defined more broadly as an absence of belief in deities, or nontheism.
Perhaps you feel that the Yellow Pages industry is a diety (as in there was no God until someone looked him up in the YP).
It looks like both of you chose your tropes because of the connotations, but Ed’s hits much closer to home. YP is closer to spam than it is to God, fella. Your choice of a term so loaded socio-historical pejorative baggage means you come off looking like the propagandist here on your independent “green” somewhat green blog.
on February 27, 2009 on 6:47 pm
Thank you for your words of wisdom Andrew. What title would you prefer me to us? Non-believers? Techno-snobs? Yellow Haters?
I’m sorry my comments look propagandistic to you. By the way, do you have any formal theology training that allowed you to assess who is closer to God? The print yellow pages do have listing for all kinds of religous groups. Doesn’t that count for anything??
on February 26, 2009 on 9:49 pm
This one’s for Ed.
Take a look at who Ken says the YP industry serves and you can probably see why they are unconcerned with some discontent, especially among a population who uses (supposedly) the material but whom the companies who create the material do not serve.
Although he is independent and does not speak for the industry (as per the meta info about his blog, which was in turn verified by a third party, no doubt), I’m sure they would support Ken’s plea for you to stop creating a PR problem for them and just “deal with it” by using the Yellow Pages often.
on February 26, 2009 on 9:50 pm
sorry “deal with it” should have read “get over it”
on February 27, 2009 on 6:59 pm
Are we keeping score here Andrew? Is that what you think this is all about?
It may surprise you and the rest of the band that no one in the industry asked me to do this site. In fact, some would rather see it stopped and go away because they feel it brings further attention to some of the outrageous commentary this is already available online.
My purpose behind this site is solely to provide the other side of the story you and others don’t want heard. For the billions of look-ups that people who use the books for, for the millions of advertisers who find it to be the most effective advertising media anywhere (including online), and for the thousands of people who work in this industry everyday, this site confirms that while the Internet is a wonder information source, it is not the solution for all mankind when it comes to finding information about local businesses. The print books do continue to fill a valuable need, as much as their very existence may irritate you and others.
on February 27, 2009 on 9:42 pm
Ken
On your first point, I was pointing out the irony in your use of wikipedia to technically define spam while using a non-literal definition of atheism to characterize your opponents. It looked like the pot was calling the kettle black.
Second, by referring to them as atheists, you invoked an implicit comparison between the Yellow Pages and the object of belief, God. Since spam and the yellow pages are both concrete and have some similarities (publication, unsolicited delivery), I think its fair to say that they are more similar than the Yellow Pages (industry?) and the unknowable god.
Third point, I apologize. I’ve reread your meta info and considered it in the context of your posts and it does make sense. I took a shortcut and a leap of logic when I took it to mean you were going to evaluate industry standards for effectiveness and call them on weak spots. Now I see that it could as easily be interpreted as defending the industries efforts when they are challenged.
Fourth, I hope you are right. I hope the industry doesn’t engage in obfuscation. It would probably serve them better to engage the end users of their products in addition to the advertisers. It looks bad people to see a discarded unwanted Yellow Pages disintegrating on the street.
As for advertisers, one of Ed’s main arguments is that advertisers suffer when they pay for ads in books that go to people who don’t want them, abandoned houses, server farms, etc.
As for third party notification. YP has associations; why not devote some common resources to a reliable opt-out system governed by them? The question is: do they want to? The economics of YP are built on economies of scale and those might break down if YP has to check, house to house, to see who wants or doesn’t want the YP. Also, is YP’s relevance declining in the same proportions as white pages as people move increasingly to unlisted cell phone numbers? Can something that was a nice bonus to an indispensable listing stand on its own? We’ll see.
Lastly, I use YP sometimes. It’s existence does not irritate me, but I see some validity in the concerns of people like Ed. YP is a big industry that (I hope) can take some constructive criticism. Ed was only objecting to delivering the YP where it is unwanted/will not be used. His larger beef with the industry arose when he tried, through the channels they advised, to stop receiving the books to no avail.
P.S. I like your quixotic underpinning at this blog, it’s good reading. But, using green in your design doesn’t automatically translate into eco-friendliness.
on March 1, 2009 on 10:08 pm
Andrew: the associaitons haven’t established a third party opt out because their members don’t think its need. They think they can and should deal with it in each of their local markets.
on February 28, 2009 on 2:24 am
Ken, I thought this was a Yellow Pages Environmental Forum. That doesn’t seem to match up with your description in the previous comment of what this site is about.
In fact, it sounds like a propoganda site when you describe it as a way to counter the honest opinions of consumer and small business advocates.
on March 1, 2009 on 6:41 pm
Say what? I think you’re losing it Ed. Read the post again before you send another silly comment.